5.15.2009

謊言與詭辯

馬英九擔任台灣總統任期滿一年,接受時代雜誌訪問專文。原文附上與譯文對照,快手翻譯必有失誤,請多包涵或指證,全文請按標題回TIME網站。
Thursday, May. 14, 2009
Taiwan's Ma Reflects on His First Year As President
台灣馬總統任期第一年回顧


In his first year in office, Taiwan President Ma Ying-jeou has kept his promise to ease tensions with the island's longstanding rival, China. Beijing and Taipei have signed several historic agreements opening up direct transport links, allowing mainland Chinese tourists to visit Taiwan, and calling for financial cooperation. Taiwan also recently announced Chinese would be allowed to invest in Taiwan for the first time. On May 12, TIME's Jim Erickson, Michael Schuman and Natalie Tso sat down with Ma to talk with him about China, the economy, and Taiwan's future.
就職一年來,台灣總統馬英九信守他的承諾,緩和島嶼與長期競爭對手中國之間的緊張局勢。北京和台北已經簽署數項歷史性的協定,開放直航、允許中國大陸觀光客訪台、並呼籲金融合作。台灣也在最近宣佈將首度開放中國人來台投資。5月12日,時代雜誌的Jim Erickson、Michael Schuman 與 Natalie Tso三位記者訪問馬關於中國、經濟、和台灣的前途等議題。

TIME: Tell us what you thought about your first year in office.
時代:您就職一年,有什麼感想?

Ma: Well it was a tough year for us. When we first took office we were faced with high prices of raw materials and oil, followed by the financial tsunami and economic downturn. We took measures to rescue the banking industry. We also reduced the inheritance tax from 50% to 10%. That has had an affect on Taiwanese capital outside of Taiwan. In recent months, that capital has been coming back. We also distributed shopping vouchers to our citizens. That was a very successful program. We also will inject about $20 billion for public construction. (Read TIME's interview with Ma after his election in 2008.)
馬:嗯,這是很艱辛的一年。我們一次上台就面對高漲的原物料與石油價格,接著是金融海嘯和經濟衰退。我們已採取措施拯救銀行業。我們也將遺產稅從50%降低至10%。這對台灣的海外資金造成了影響。近幾個月來,那些資金已逐漸回流。我們也發放消費卷給民眾。那個計畫非常成功。我們也將會投入大約200億美元進行公共建設。(請參考馬英九於2008當選後的專訪。

T: Has the amount of attention spent dealing with the crisis set back initiatives you wanted to take the first year?
時:處理這些危機用掉的精力,是否阻礙了你就任第一年想進行的某些計畫?

M: We wanted to see a growth rate of 6%, keep the unemployment rate below 3%, and boost annual per capita GDP to $18,000 within four years. The economic crisis disrupted all of these goals. But we continue to work to revitalize the economy. We still have a long way to go. But that's OK, because we believe the Taiwanese have the perseverance and work ethic to make the economy come back.
馬:我們想要看到6%的成長率,把失業率維持在3%以下,並在四年內提高國人平均每人生產毛額至美金一萬八千元。經濟危機打亂了這些所有的目標。但我們繼續努力振興經濟。我們仍有很長的路要走。但是沒有關係,因為我們相信台灣人有毅力和工作道德,可以復甦經濟。

T: What kind of lessons have you learned from the crisis?
時:從危機中你學會什麼教訓?

M: We were hard hit by the shrinkage of the export market in the U.S. and Europe, because exports account for 64% of our GDP growth. So one lesson we learned is we should diversify our export markets — we need to look to emerging markets and oil-producing countries. Secondly, we should diversify our export industries — we depend so much on IT industries. Third, we have designated six industries as future flagship industries: green energy, tourism, biotechnology, refined agriculture, and the cultural and creative industries. We are keenly aware these industries in 5 to 10 years will be the major industries of the world. Not only do we have to revise our economic policy, but also our political and security policy, so that is why I started to reform our China policy.
馬:我們受到美國和歐洲出口市場萎縮的打擊很大,因為我們的國內生產毛額成長率的64%來自出口。因此,我們學到的一項教訓就是我們的出口市場應該多樣化-我們需要留意新興市場和產油國家。第二,我們應將出口產業多樣化-我們過度倚賴科技產業。第三,我們已經指定六個行業為未來的旗艦產業:綠色能源、觀光、生物技術、精緻農業、以及文化和創意產業。我們清楚了解這些產業在未來5到10年內將是世界的主要產業。我們不僅必須修改我們的經濟政策,也要修改政治和國防政策,這也是我開始改革我們的中國政策的原因。

T: You have been talking about an Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement (ECFA) with China. What do you want to achieve with that?
時:您一直在談與中國之間的經濟合作架構協議(ECFA)。您想達成什麼目標?

M: The ECFA will be different from a normal free-trade agreement. It will take the form of a framework that will identify the types of items we will negotiate over time. We want to negotiate with the mainland about some of the products we consider most urgent. For instance, pertrochemicals, auto parts, textiles, these products constitute a large percentage of our exports to the mainland. Beginning next year, the same products from (Southeast Asian countries) will have no tariffs, but ours will face tariff rates from 5% to 15%. That will kill our industries. The mainland has already indicated interest in signing an agreement with us. In the last year we've signed nine agreements focusing on air transport; a financial supervisory mechanism covering stocks, futures and insurance companies, which will be negotiated in the next couple of months; also food safety, postal cooperation, a joint effort to combat crime and judicial assistance. These are all milestone agreements. (Read about new business deals between China and Taiwan.)
馬:ECFA 將與一般的自由貿易協定不同。它採取的是一個架構的形式,定義我們將逐漸談判的項目類型。我們想要與大陸談判某些我們認為最有急迫性的產品。例如,石化產品、汽車零件、紡織品,這些產品佔我們對大陸出口很高的比例。從明年開始,同樣的產品,從(東南亞國家)將不會有關稅,但我們的產品會面臨5%到5%的關稅稅率。這會使我們的產業死亡。大陸已經表示有興趣與我們簽署協定。去年一年裡,我們已經簽署了九項協議,內容關於航空運輸;金融監督機制包括股票、期貨和保險業,這些將在接下來幾個月進行談判;還有食品安全、郵政合作、共同努力打擊犯罪和司法互助。這些都是具有里程碑意義的協議。(閱讀關於中國和台灣之間的新商業協定。

T: There's a substantial part of the Taiwanese population that is concerned economic integration with China will mean political integration. How can you help them understand that you can, as you have said in the past, "manage" the sovereignty issue, without actually settling it?
時:有相當比例的台灣人民憂慮與中國之間的經濟整合意味著政治合併。您如何幫助他們了解你可以,如您過去所言,「管理」(manage)主權議題而不實際處理該問題?

M: We started to manage the sovereignty issue as early as 1992. At the time, China said we have to observe the One-China principle. We said we can accept the One-China principle but our definition is different from yours. We accept that principle not because we want to please them, but this is what our constitution says, and our constitution was adopted in 1946, three years before the Chinese communists came into power...we don't recognize the mainland as a nation nor do they recognize (Taiwan) as a nation. So what I have called for is that we continue to have mutual non-recognition. We cannot recognize each other on the legal level. But we could have a policy of non-denial on the de facto level.
馬:我們早至1992年就開始處理(manage)主權議題。當時,中國表示我們必須遵守一個中國原則。我們說我們可以接受一中原則,但是我們的定義與你們的不同。我們接受該原則並不是因為我們想要取悅他們,而是因為這是我們憲法的內容,而我們的憲法是在1946年開始啟用,比中國共產黨掌權還要早三年... 我們不承認大陸是一個國家,他們也不承認(台灣)是一個國家。因此我要求的是我們繼續互相不承認。我們不能在法理層面上承認彼此。但我們在實質層面上可以有不否認的政策。

T: There's still a percentage of population of fearful that you're selling Taiwan out.
時:仍有相當比例的人口恐懼您將出賣台灣。

M: We conduct opinion polls to see whether they trust us and the majority does.
馬:我們進行民調了解民眾是否信任我們,而大部分都信任。

T: But there are still fierce protests.
時:但仍有激烈的抗議。

M: Some, but not everyone.
馬:有一些,但不是每個人。

T: Is there progress in winning some of them over?
時:有開始贏得其中一些人的信任嗎?

M: Look at what happened when we allowed mainland tourists to come to Taiwan last year. Opponents said they wouldn't come. In the beginning, only a few hundred came a month, but now we have about 3,000 daily. Many of our attractions are crowded with mainland tourists, and some are big spenders. People generally believe that this is in our interest to have them here. The other thing is mainland capital. Of course there are people who fear mainland capital will ruin our capital market but we'll regulate the different industries, so we [will open up] bit by bit. Taiwan is a country that depends so much on international trade and investment, you can't really have an isolationist policy.
馬:看看我們去年讓大陸遊客來台之後發生的情況。反對者說他們不會來。一開始,每個月只有幾百人,但現在每天大約有三千名。我們的許多景點都擠滿大陸遊客,有些人開銷闊綽。民眾普遍認為開放陸客來台對我們有好處。另外一件事是大陸資金。當然有人害怕大陸資金將毀壞我們的資本市場,但我們會在不同產業加以規範,一點一點的開放。台灣是一個非常仰賴國際貿易和投資的國家,我們不能採取孤立政策。

T: Do you think the steps you've taken have helped reduce the impact of the economic crisis?
時: 您是否認為您採取的步驟有助於降低經濟危機?

M: If we had not done things like opening up direct transportation links to the mainland, we'd suffer more. Cost reduction is very important for businessmen. For the shipping industry, they [previously] had to move goods to China by stopping over in a tiny town in Okinawa and paying $5,000 to $10,000 to get a chop to say they've been though a third place. We've done this stupid thing for more than 20 years, and that little town has got a windfall, but now it's changed.
馬:如果我們沒有進行例如開放大陸直航等措施,我們會吃更多苦。對商人而言降低成本非常重要。對航運業來說,他們(先前)必須將貨物先暫停在小鎮,例如沖繩,付五千到一萬元費用蓋一個章表示他們是經過第三地才把貨品運到中國。我們已經做了20多年這樣的蠢事,小鎮因此發了一筆橫財,但現在局勢已變。

T: Where are you on the military issue? You have previously said you could not negotiate with China until they removed their missiles [targeting Taiwan], but you seem to have relaxed that.
時:您對軍事問題的立場如何?您先前說您不能與中國談判除非他們撤除(指向台灣的)導彈,但您似乎已經放鬆態度?

M: No, I haven't relaxed that. We still want them to remove the missiles. But if the two sides are to negotiate a peace agreement, the requirement on the removal of missiles obviously should not apply to the negotiations for cross-strait flights.
馬:不,我沒有對此放鬆。我們仍希望他們撤除導彈。但如果雙方將談判達成和平協議,撤除導彈的要求明顯的不應適用於海峽兩岸航班的談判。

T: Do you hope to have talks with China about the military?
時:你是否希望與中國談論軍事問題?

M: No, I don't think that's very urgent.
馬:不,我不認為這是急迫的問題。

T: So no peace agreement this year?
時:所以今年不會有和平協議?

M: No, I don't think so, do you know why? We have already made it very clear last year when I took office, that I'll have a mainland policy, which is under the framework of our constitution and which is based on three principles: no unification, no independence, and no use of force. By no unification I mean no unification talks with the mainland during my term. The second is no independence. Of course Taiwan has autonomy because we elect our own president, parliament and run our own business, but the independence I talk about is de jure independence. I won't do that, and we oppose the use of force.
馬:不,我想不會,你知道為什麼嗎?因為我們已經在我去年就職的時候說得很清楚,我會有一個大陸政策,這政策是符合我們憲法的框架,基於三個原則:不統、不獨、不武。不統的意思是,在我任內不會與大陸談統一。第二是不武。當然台灣具有自主權,因為我們選我們自己的總統、國會,做我們自己的事,但我所說得獨立是法理上的獨立。我不會這樣做,並且我反對使用武力。

The reason is to assure the other side, as long as we're not taking a policy to pursue de jure independence – that's a reason for the mainland to use force against us – we will maintain the status quo, which reflects what the mainstream public opinion has been for more than 20 years. That is one of the reasons I was elected last year, unlike my predecessor who opted for a pro-independence policy which caused Taiwan a lot of trouble.
這麼做的原因是向對岸保證,只要我們不採取追求法理獨立的政策-這是大陸對台動武的理由-我們將維持現狀,這反映了超過20多年的主流民意。這是我去年當選的理由之一,與我的前任選擇支持獨立政策,為台灣帶來很多麻煩有別。

T: Do you think China will pressure you to change the political status quo?
時:你是否認為中國將對您施壓以改變政治現狀?

M: Of course they hope we'll do it faster. Obviously they understand it is not a very urgent issue in the eyes of the Taiwanese people. You see, up to now, only one year into my presidency, people still have a lot of doubts about China. They fear their way of life is not something [China] can accept, particularly in terms of freedom and democracy, so obviously the time has not come for the two sides to negotiate something called unification. But on the issue of security, two years ago, [China President] Hu Jintao formally extended an offer to Taiwan, that we should sign a peace agreement. At the time, I was running for president, and I responded positively. But I think that we want to make it clear this is not an agreement on Taiwan's future buy rather it is a security issue. Taiwan's future is related to unification and I made it very clear that I won't touch that issue during my presidency.
馬:當然他們希望我們做得更快一點。顯然他們了解這在台灣人民的眼中不是一個非常急迫的問題。你看,到現在為止,我的任期只進入第一年,人們仍對中國有很多疑慮。他們擔心他們的生活方式並非中國可接受,特別是自由和民主,所以很明顯的兩岸談判所謂統一的時機還沒到。但是在國防議題上,兩年前,(中國國家主席)胡錦濤正式提議與台灣簽署和平協議。那時候,我正在競選總統,而我做出正面的回應。但我想我們要了解這不是一個關於台灣未來的協議,而是一個安全議題。台灣的未來與統一有關,而我很清楚的表示,我不會在我的任內碰觸那個問題。

T: How would you like China relations to progress in the next year?
時:您希望明年與中國的關係如何進展?

M: We're now on the right track. Many American experts on China relations say relations between China and Taiwan are the best in 60 years. China can have a friendly relationship with Washington and Taipei and vice versa. A year from now, we certainly hope to achieve something on the ECFA issue and further normalize our relations with the mainland.
馬:我們現在在正確的道路上。許多美國的中國專家說,中國和台灣的關係是60年來最好的。中國與華府和台北之間可以有有好的關係,反之亦然。一年後,我們當然希望實現一些ECFA的議題,並進一步正常化我們與大陸的關係。

Secondly we hope we can avoid the marginalization of Taiwan as a result of regional economic integration in Asia. If we are able to have the ECFA with China, I think the pressure on our trading partners will be reduced. Many countries with whom we don't have diplomatic ties come to us now and say they feel a bit relieved, that if Beijing is ready to improve relations with you, why can't we? Taiwan is no longer a flashpoint in East Asia, and that's what we want. Opinion polls show the majority, sometimes a great majority, support our policies, but we still need to talk to our opposition. They always believe we are selling out Taiwan, but I keep telling everyone, "Listen, we're not selling out Taiwan, the only thing I sell out is Taiwan's fruit to the mainland."
其次,我希望我們可以避免台灣因亞洲的區域經濟整合而邊緣化。如果我可以跟中國簽署ECFA,我認為對我們的貿易夥伴的壓力將會減輕。許多與我們沒有外交關係的國家現在都告訴我們他們覺得鬆了口氣,如果北京願意與你改善關係,我們為何不能?台灣已經不再是東亞的戰爭引爆點,這是我們想要的。民調顯示出多數人,有時是絕大多數人,都支持我們的政策,但我們仍需要與反對黨溝通。他們永遠堅信我們在出賣台灣,但我一直告訴大家,「聽好,我們不會出賣台灣,我唯一出賣到大陸的的是台灣的水果。」


* Find this article at:
* http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1898155,00.html

No comments: